The Jacksonville Women Lawyers Association recently hosted a panel discussion at the Florida Coastal School of Law to discuss topics of interest to women in the legal profession. The panel included five judges and two general masters. Judge Karen Cole was the moderator. Interviewing tips for recent law school graduates, advice to women in the profession on mentoring and securing partnerships and how to approach the firm’s principal with issues like pregnancy were just a few of the topics discussed. Daily Record staff writer Monica Chamness was present for the discussion.
Question: What do you think a law student or a new lawyer should do to prepare for a job with a law firm or government agency?
General Master Kathryn Sands: I think you should go to their office first to see where they are. You also should look at the Martindale Hubbell and see where the people are practicing: who’s there, what their rating is, find out what everybody’s doing. Then you should ask other students who interviewed there and friends that are lawyers what reputation this firm has.
General Master Dianne Misiak: You should also check to see what kind of law they practice. Look at your experience as a law student and see how your experience matches with the type of law that they practice so you can aim yourself at what they’re doing and give them a reason to hire you.
Q: As far as the nature of interviews, were there things that you did not anticipate?
Judge Pauline Drayton-Harris: I interviewed with the State Attorney’s Office. I would have been the only black female in the office; at that time there were very few. At one point there was an opening for a judicial seat and someone said something about fitting your family into the responsibilities of the office. I think if you get those questions, although now inappropriate, you should answer them honestly in light of your experience. If you get those questions, be prepared to make that decision whether you want to be there.
Judge Karen Cole: I remember being surprised at how little the interview actually focused on law school credentials. They wanted to know who you were. They wanted to see if you could talk, if you have a life and if you fit in with the personalities at their firm. So I think you need to go prepared to be yourself and be relaxed. They’ve already read your resume or you wouldn’t have got the interview.
Judge Ivy Cream-Harris: I started in government; I’ve been in government my entire career. They wanted to know more about how I would fit in with their style. You [Drayton-Harris] were real lucky. In the 1970s they told me I didn’t look like a state attorney. I still have litigants that say I don’t look like a judge.
Q: In some of the very largest firms there are formal mentoring programs but frankly, that’s rather rare. What can you do if you’re not at one of those firms, to establish an informal mentoring relationship?
Judge Joanna Houser: In the Family Inn of Courts there’s a family division and a civil division. In the family division we talk about mentoring and you could contact one of those groups and they can hook you up with someone who is willing to spend some time with you or they will get you help. That is probably one of the best places to start if you don’t know anybody in Jacksonville. Some attorneys will help you if you ask. They’re probably hard to approach if you’re just coming into the legal field but most, if you ask, will help you out or lead you to someone who would.
Judge Jean Johnson: I think it could be dangerous for you to look for a mentor too soon depending upon which law firm you affiliate with because you don’t know yet what type of law you want to be practicing. I think it’s a good idea to have lots of mentors. Ask advice from as many people as you can until you kind of get your bearings. Law firms are just like any other business: there are a lot of things going on that you’re not going to be aware of. Everyone wants to mentor but it’s a good idea to be very pleasant and helpful with everyone and kind of get an idea about who is going to be most helpful to you and what the dynamics of the firm are. If you go in there on the first day and say, ‘I like this attorney and I want her to be my mentor,’ you might be making the wrong decision too quickly. Most of the time there will be a senior partner or senior associate who likes to mentor but sometimes they may not want to be bothered.
Q: How do all of you feel about young lawyers coming out of law school and hanging out their own shingle?
Drayton-Harris: I think that’s hard to do. Law school doesn’t teach you how to be a lawyer. There are certain basic things that you don’t know how to do, like filing a pleading, getting it to the courthouse, getting it right — it’s not as easy as you would think. How do you present yourself in front of a judge? Law school tends to be very theoretical. If you don’t want to become part of a large or mid-sized firm, you may want to consider a government job. Governmental agencies give lots of practical trial experience. You’re going to be surrounded by experienced lawyers whose responsibility it is to teach you. You’re also going to be with a group of other young attorneys who will assist you. Another advantage is that you’re not so concerned about billable hours. You get a lot of exposure to different judges and areas of law. The State Attorney’s Office hires interns in the summer. It’s the best way to get practical experience. Law firms look for people who have prior work experience. Another good place to get that same kind of experience is from people you know. Sometimes people will talk to other people and that’s how we all make it up the ladder, on the shoulders of someone else. If you think you can do it by yourself, if you can go and hang out you’re own shingle, if you know everything, you’re doomed.
Cole: The Jacksonville Bar Association has a formal mentoring program and senior lawyers will sign on to mentor a new attorney. The relationships can be confidential but there is no shame in being a new attorney and trying to do it right. The worst thing that I see is new attorneys being afraid to admit that they don’t know something. If you’re not in a situation where you feel you have people you can turn to with questions, you can sign up with the JBA. In my experience, the senior attorneys that sign up to be mentors are the very sort you want teaching you about professionalism, practice skills and ethics.
Q: Does anyone have any thoughts about how you would convey to your firm that you have an expectation that down the road there will be a partnership in your future?
Johnson: You need to bring it up in the final interview. Before you sign on with the firm you need to know what their partnership track is, how long on average it takes to be a partner and what they expect from people who want to become a partner. You need to ask questions that are pertinent to your career advancement. You need to be clear that that’s what you have in mind. Larger firms say you may have to be there several years or they may expect to bring in so much employment. You need to consider if you have the ability or the connections to do that. The attitude prevails in some law firms that women are not going to put in the hours that some of the men might. If you know you want to be home at a certain time or you have small children or a demanding husband, you need to be honest with yourself about what you can do and what you can offer that firm. Although I strongly believe that firms should accommodate the interests of working parents, you need to be realistic. They want associates to work long hours.
Cole: It’s worthwhile to ask, ‘What are the attributes you look for in an associate when you’re considering them for a partnership?’ If it’s important to them that you become an integral part of the legal community, then join professional organizations. If it’s a litigation firm, you need to be actively asking for cases to try.
Q: If you are thinking about starting a family, at what point do you broach to the firm the subject of childbearing and child rearing and how do you broach that question?
Drayton-Harris: I don’t think I broached the subject that my husband and I were thinking about having children. It becomes a concern to the firm if they think you will not be able to devote the same amount of time. The way you handle yourself is important. I’ll be honest; my children are more important to me than any job I have ever had. I think because I made them a priority, it may have slowed down my career but I don’t regret that. You need to make those same kind of decisions and not try to be a super woman. Law is a very demanding, competitive field. You need to consider in your career how this is going to impact your life as well as their life. You have to able to integrate them into your life and not the other way around. In the beginning, women thought they had to be like men. There were women who literally did not take enough time off for childbirth, pregnancy and the like and they expected some sort of reward for that. When that didn’t happen, they were disappointed. “I only took off two weeks. I had someone taking care of my child and I’m right back in the office.” You have to be able to say this is what my values are. A lot of firms look for morals and integrity.
Q: Should you wait until you’re actually pregnant to discuss with your firm whether it has a policy on family leave?
Misiak: It’s something you should know from talking with the partners in an informal setting. If you’re hoping to be part-time lawyer and part-time mom, some of the firms will work with you but some of them absolutely will not. You can’t assume because of the way a female partner who had a baby is treated, you will be treated in the same manner. If you made yourself a valuable part of the firm, a lot of them will work with you.
Cole: You have to also be sensitive to the fact that the other attorneys in the firm may have concerns but are afraid to express them for fear of hurting your sensibilities or violating the law. Before you ever consider having a child, make sure they understand that the practice of law is important to you and it’s a dimension of your life you don’t want to give up. Whether you discuss that [babies] in an opening interview is a judgment call. It may be wiser to inquire about informally and find out if there is a formal policy, secondly how they may have dealt with that issue in the past. Go in with your eyes open and educate yourself about the firm.
Johnson: If they ask you in an interview about your pregnancy plans, that is illegal. They are telling you they don’t know what the law is and they don’t care what the law is. They have told you that you do not need to be working for that law firm. If you’re going to be one of a few attorneys at a smaller firm, you need to be aware that your absence is putting a real stress on the firm and you have an obligation to alleviate that. In some cases, you may be able to work from home.
Cream-Harris: One thing you might want to consider if you’re considering having a family; government work is a little more sensitive to that because they have to be. They seem to understand and are generally larger so they can somewhat absorb being absent.
Cole: Another thing you can do is prepare for your absence. If you have a caseload, prepare a list of your upcoming trials and mediations, the status of your cases and provide that information well in advance.
Q: When a lawyer comes to practice before you, what are the attributes that make a good professional lawyer?
Drayton-Harris: I look for being prepared and organized. I expect them to know more about the file than I do. If you’re going to argue case law, I want to see the case law. I hate the saying, ‘Judge, because the case law says so.’ That’s OK if you’re talking about a precedent. Also, be on time. If my hearing is set at 11 a.m. and you’re not there at 11:05, I’ve gone on. I also expect you to set the amount of time you need. Don’t set 10 minutes when you need 30. We’ll work with you if you’re trying to squeeze something in. I also like attorneys who call ahead of time to cancel hearings if the case has already settled. I know there’s a myth that judges really don’t like to clear their calendars but we really do. The other thing is that if you say you’re going to get an order back to us, do that. It wastes time for our judicial system to call you. We need to be able to review the order.
Cole: A reputation takes a long time to build but is easily lost. I guarantee you that judges talk. They know who they can rely upon and who they cannot.
Q: What do you expect of attorneys when they’re in court in regards to witnesses, opposing counsel and the judge?
Johnson: I expect them to introduce themselves to me. Don’t assume I know who you are; judges meet a lot of people. Be courteous to everyone, particularly other attorneys. It is an ethical violation for an attorney to accuse another attorney of an ethical violation before a judge. Judges do not like to hear the petty squabbling. Part of professional demeanor is extending those small courtesies. If you’re always mean and nasty and never grant anyone the smallest favor, you will suffer for it.
Cole: I think it’s very important that attorneys refer to witnesses and their own clients as well as defending clients using courtesy titles. I think everyone who is in a courtroom setting deserves the dignity of a title be it Doctor, Miss, Mister, whatever. Don’t call a witness or a client by the first name.
Johnson: Also, the only form of address for a judge is “Your Honor.”
Q: How do you handle difficult attorneys, the ones that know your hot buttons and love to press them?
Misiak: You follow the rules, be ethical, keep your temper and your professionalism. If your demeanor is calm, it’s only going to make them look worse and you look better. You have the right, if you’re in a deposition for example, if the opposing attorney is belittling your client to the point of fear, to stop that deposition and make sure there’s a third party there to make sure that doesn’t happen and file the proper motion. If that attorney goes ballistic and wants to go off the record, say, “No, I want anything you have to say on the record.” You can’t give back what that attorney is giving to you.
Q: Let’s say you’re at a deposition and the other attorney is belittling your client but is doing so by tone of voice rather than by word. You know that the record is not going to reflect what is happening. What do you do?
Misiak: You object and make a statement that you do not appreciate that tone of voice. Don’t do it a nasty manner because then it looks like you’re coming up with ideas to stop the deposition. You do it in a calm voice, matter-of-fact. “I’m not going to put up with this. This is not the way you treat my client. This is not the way you treat anybody.” They don’t have the right to attack them.
Drayton-Harris: If there is a problem, may I suggest that you call each other and work this thing out. Go outside after the deposition and talk. There’s a myth floating around that attorneys can’t talk to each other.