During the 1970s and 1980s, Ernie Mastroianni was a fixture on the local news scene. Fifteen years ago, he left TV, ran for property appraiser and won. During that time, he’s kept a relatively low profile — until recently. There may be no better way, as a public official, to garner headlines than by entering into a feud with the mayor’s office. Mastroianni sat down with Daily Record staff writer Mike Sharkey Wednesday to talk about TV, his office and Mayor John Delaney.
Question: You have lived in Atlantic Beach for years and you’ve seen the property values at the beach and other parts of town go up dramatically over the past decade. Are some areas of Jacksonville in danger of becoming totally unaffordable where a decade ago they were affordable?
Answer: Before too long, the average person with the average income will not be able to afford to live at the beach close to the ocean. Maybe in Atlantic Beach west of Seminole Road and in Jacksonville Beach and Neptune Beach west of Penman Road. But, even at that, eventually that property is going to become too valuable. I try to leave in the morning when it’s dark and drive home when it’s dark because I’m concerned somebody may take a shot at me. Just kidding. It’s happening now. Talking with people out at the beach, fortunately they understand. They understand the market keeps increasing and it’s not my fault. There’s nothing I can do about that. What’s happens is what you described. Eventually, nothing but very well off people will live at the beach.
Q: Do you worry that may help create a very economically segregated town with pockets of very well-off neighborhoods surrounded by everyone else?
A: I think you’ve had that situation already and I’ll use Atlantic Beach as an example because I’m most familiar with it, but you could say the same thing about Neptune and Jacksonville Beach. There’s a line, it seems to be Third Street or A1A. East of A1A, you’ve got very, very wealthy people. West of A1A, it decreases. Those with more modest incomes live farther away from A1A. In Atlantic Beach, west of Mayport Road, west of Seminole Road, it starts. The values start decreasing and decrease the farther west you go. I think that’s been true all the time. What’s happening now, is there’s just such a tremendous increase [in property values] and very quickly. Values at the beach, it’s difficult to judge the percentage increase every year — probably 10, 15 percent every year, maybe even more than that.
Q: Isn’t there a three percent cap on how much property values can go up each year?
A: Yes, but it doesn’t matter. For instance, if you bought a house now that was assessed at $200,000 and you came in and paid $500,000 for it. Guess what’s going to happen. Next year, your house is going to assessed at $500,000, it’s not going to stay at $200,000 because the cap says you cannot go above three percent on homesteaded property each year. But, when that house sells, you assess. And, that is a big problem. We get lots of people calling saying, ‘My house went up more than three percent.’ We ask if they just bought it. ‘Yes.’ It now is assessed at market value. You pay taxes on the assessed value, which you pay taxes on, and the market value that you do not pay taxes on. That market value keeps going up.
Q: Compared to the rest of the state, where does Duval County rank in property values? Are there other counties in similar situations?
A: Sure. The big counties or the counties that are on the water — Palm Beach, Broward, Dade — and on the Gulf coast, the Naples and Ft. Myers area. Any place on the ocean has the same issues. If you were to check with them, you would find the percentage increase is probably even more than it is here because the weather is warmer. The Orlando area is out of control.
Q: Mayor John Delaney has said recently that he thought some downtown properties were under valued. Considering that the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission gives economic incentives for developers downtown, wouldn’t lower property values reduce the amount of the incentives needed for developers? What’s the issue if downtown property is under appraised?
A: Because it’s illegal. Property must be assessed at market value, that’s the Florida law. I have a problem with the mayor saying some property is assessed too low. The Adam’s Mark thing came up where they appealed because they said it was too high. And, the mayor agreed with them. He was quoted in the newspaper. You know, you can’t have it both ways. It’s either too high or too low. What I’m telling you is, in our opinion, it’s right on the money. If the mayor has information, he could come and tell me. We change assessments daily.
Q: Should the Adam’s Mark be able to appeal their property taxes based on how good business was the previous year?
A: Sure, all businesses have that right and we take that into consideration. Despite what some people may think, we do lots of research. We have more information in this office than anyone can imagine on property values. We don’t just grab numbers out of the air. We can sit down and show you, or anybody else, how we came to a conclusion of value.
Q: How do you see the Adam’s Mark issue being resolved.
A: Our value was upheld by the Value Adjustment Board. Now, it’s up to the Adam’s Mark to decide. They can go to court, that’s the last step they can take. They can sue us, but we have not heard. They have a certain amount of time to decide whether they want to do that.
Q: You’ve been in the news a lot recently. How would you describe the relationship between your office and the mayor’s office?
A: I don’t think there is a relationship.
Q: Is there animosity?
A: Not on my part. I have no animosity. I learned a long time ago that life is too short to get angry at people, to dislike people. That’s nonsense. What’s been happening has been emanating from Duval Street [City Hall], not from this office. We have always cooperated with the City. Anytime they have wanted information we have been more than happy to give it to them. Again, there is no animosity on my part. At some point, people in the mayor’s office decided they wanted to run this office. I don’t know who that was and I don’t know why. But I was not elected by the mayor and his staff. I was elected by the people and the Constitution of the State of Florida clearly states that the property appraiser must be independent, no question about that. We should not, must not, be influenced by any other political animal, whether it’s city or county government. And, that is my position.
Q: Is that what makes you believe your office is exempt from a City audit?
A: Yes. There’s an attorney general’s ruling that says we are exempt from a City audit. It’s not my opinion, that’s the way it is. We are audited every year by the Department of Revenue, which is the State agency to which we respond. They are in charge of this office, not the City. Again, it’s very clear in the rules and the Constitution. They come in every year and audit us. Last year, they audited over 9,000 properties and said everything is fine. If the City is not happy with that, they need to go to the Department of Revenue and talk to them. I don’t know what the Department of Revenue did or what they looked at or how they audited. Secondly, how do you audit an office that is doing appraisals. Again, appraisals by law are an estimate of value. How do you audit that? The Department of Revenue knows how to do that. They do it every year in 67 counties. They have a system, a method, they use. They don’t just come and look at this property and say, ‘Geez, that’s way under assessed or that’s over assessed.’ It’s done by what is called ‘mass appraisals.’ It’s the only way you can do it. You can’t do it one by one by one. You’d need a staff of several hundred people. That’s why we’re saying, ‘You [the City] can’t audit us. The Department of Revenue has audited us. If we can’t give you enough information, you can go to them. They have everything.’
Q: When was the last DOR audit?
A: This year, every year. It’s a long process, probably over a period of about six months. It ended probably in July.
Q: Were there any major discrepancies or issues you needed to address?
A: No. And, to my recollection, there have been discrepancies, but nothing major. And, not really discrepancies, but questions. ‘We’re looking at such and such and you did A, B, and C. Can you tell us why?’ We respond and they go away.
Q: Did your issues with the mayor’s office start when the flap about new computers came to light several months? It’s perceived you circumvented the process for purchasing the equipment.
A: I did not circumvent any process. That is not correct. I cannot help perceptions. We were at a meeting last week in Tallahassee and the mayor’s office was represented, the Department of Revenue was there and I was there. The chief accountant for the Department of Revenue, which is responsible for our budget, stated clearly there was nothing wrong with Ernie doing what he did. If the City wants to think that, that’s their business. I did nothing wrong. Why they decided I did something wrong, I don’t know. I’m not sure you’re aware of that whole process of what happened. I put money in my budget for a new computer system and signed the contract with the computer company. At some point the mayor’s Budget Review Commission was having a meeting, looking at my budget, and the mayor walked through the conference room and said, ‘What are you doing? Whose budget are you working on?’ Mastroianni’s [was the answer]. ‘Cut the hell out of it.’ So they took the money out for the computers which they have no authority to do. They cannot take money out of my budget, by law. They can appeal the budget, but they cannot remove the money. I did nothing wrong. I did everything I was supposed to do. The Department of Revenue upheld it [the budget] for a while to get more information. Once they got the information they needed, the budget was approved. I still don’t have the money for the computers. They still won’t give it to me.
Q: Where does that issue stand right now?
A: In court. Some judge, maybe more than one, will ultimately get to decide who’s right.
Q: Will it be too late by then? You may not even be in office by the time it’s resolved.
A: That’s one of the things that’s convincing me to run again; so that I will be here to make sure that what’s supposed to happen, happens.
Q: Is the rift between this office and the mayor’s office personal or professional?
A: It’s neither as far as I’m concerned. There is no rift. I don’t have any problems with the mayor’s office. All I want is to be left alone to do the job I was elected to do. I haven’t talked to the mayor in probably two years. It’s been a long time.
Q: Should you talk to him more often than that?
A: I don’t know why. I don’t know that I have any reason to talk to him. When he calls and has a question I’ve answered his questions. We don’t socialize. I like the mayor. I’ve always liked the mayor.
Q: Did you vote for him?
A: Absolutely.
Q: Where are you from originally?
A: I’m from Massachusetts. I came down here in 1966, went to Orlando and spent almost a year there in television. I came back here, went to work at Ch. 4 and stayed there 14 and a half years. Then, I went to Chicago to teach at Northwestern where I taught broadcast journalism in graduate school. I came back to Florida to anchor the news at Ch. 12 for almost three years, left that and ran for Property Appraiser and here I am.
Q: Why did you leave Ch. 4 to teach in Chicago?
A: I needed a change. It was time to do something different. Then, this offer came up from Ch. 12 and I came back.
Q: Why did you leave Ch. 12?
A: We had a difference of opinion on what was journalism and how it should be done. I decided I could not work for a company that looked lightly at what was happening in Jacksonville and in particular, with the Property Appraisers Office. I had done a series of investigative stories — that was my forte all the years I was here, investigative reporting — I had done a series on this office with the previous property appraiser. They decided they didn’t want to run it because they were concerned about lawsuits because some of the people involved were the real high rollers here in the city. They were getting special treatment, special favors from this office. They decided they didn’t want to run the series as it was. They wanted me to take all the names out and [laughing] I told them that’s not how you did journalism and so I left.
Q: Obviously, that must have piqued your interest in running for property appraiser.
A: At the time, I was trying to decide, what now? I had done journalism and I was through with it. I had done everything in wanted to do and I had accomplished everything I wanted to accomplish. And, I knew this office. I was familiar with it. I had done stories about this office for a long time, way back when I was with Ch. 4 in the 1970s. This office was really messed up for a long time. I was just cocky enough to think I could come in here and straighten it out. I ran and because of my name recognition, I won. I’ve won three time since then.
Q: Did you run because you learned enough about the job that it interested you or did you run because you wanted to clean up the office?
A: I think both. Again, I knew what was going on. All the years I had been a reporter, much of that time was spent doing investigative work on government. I said, ‘it’s time to put up or shut up. You know what some of the problems are at the Property Appraiser’s Office. Go see if you can straighten it out.’ I had been a manager before and that’s what this job is. This job is purely administrative. I don’t appraise property. When I ran that became an issue — ‘what do you know about appraising property?’ Nothing. And, I don’t know a whole heck of a lot more now than I did 15 years ago, although I do know some. But that’s not what this job calls for. This job calls for an administrator, hiring the right people and then leaving them alone and letting them do their job. That’s what we’ve done.
Q: What was your first objective the first two years in office?
A: To correct the inequities in the tax roll. Lots of people were getting incredible tax breaks amounting to hundreds of millions of dollars all over the city. That was the first objective. When the grand jury investigated this office, they issued a list of names of people that had not done anything illegal, but were being favored by the office. The very first thing we did that year was go into all those names and check their properties. The second thing we did was check all elected officials property to make sure they were being treated properly. That was the first thing, let’s find out where the problem is. Since then, it’s been a matter of refining how the office is managed — What are we doing? How are we doing it? How can we do it more efficiently? And, I think we’ve accomplished that.
Q: You’ve run two more times since first getting elected. Is that because you’ve learned to enjoy the job or are you still trying to improve the office?
A: I think some of each. I’m at an age now where I could run again and enjoy it for another four years or I could walk away and say, ‘It’s been fun and I’ve accomplished what I wanted to accomplish.’ But that’s not entirely true. There’s still more to be done. It doesn’t end. There’s always things you can do to make it better with the object being, of course, that people be treated fairly — everybody: rich, poor, in between.
Q: We have talked about you running again and the Florida Supreme Court has opened that door. What are your thoughts today on that? Jim Overton has entered the race and he’s a two-term City Council member, fairly recognizable, a Republican and you are a Democrat. Have you made up your mind yet?
A: No, not entirely. Daily, I’m leaning more toward, yes, I’m going to run again. I don’t have to make that decision right now. I still have time. I’m recognizable, I don’t have the name identification problem. The problem is whether people like you or not.
Q: Are you perceived as being liked?
A: Do I perceive that? Yes, but it’s not me that people like, it’s what we do here. Every year during the protest period, we ask people to fill out a very simple form — How long did you have to wait? Were you treated courteously? Is there anything we can do to improve the office? We’ve been doing this for several years and it’s amazing the response we get. They may not be happy with the assessment, and we can’t do a whole lot about that right then and there, but we check every single one that comes in. Answering the questions — Did you have to wait in line? No. Were you treated courteously and professionally? Yes. What can we do to improve the office? Not a lot. I just had a call from a gentleman who was having problem and we solved the problem. He called me back to say, ‘I want you to know that rarely do the taxpayers get a chance to speak to the elected official. I have this problem that’s been going on a couple of weeks and I’ve talked to you at least three times now. I just want to thank you for being there.’
Q: Do you enjoy what you do?
A: Oh yes. Mike, I’ve had a good life. I’ve really had a wonderful life and I say that in all seriousness. I’ve had some wonderful experiences and met some wonderful people. I’ve had lots of fun and done most of the things that I wanted to do. I don’t know how you ask for much more than that.
Q: What’s left on the to-do list?
A: Get my computers [laughing].
Q: If you don’t run again or you don’t win, what do you do?
A: I have seriously though about bagging groceries at Publix. I’d get to meet a lot of nice people again. I like people, I like being with people. They’re wonderful, they really are. I have people say to me frequently, ‘You’ve got a tough job. People come in and complain.’ I say, ‘That’s not true.’ Five percent of the people that come in complain, the rest are as nice as they can be. They’ll come in, sit down and chat. What most people want, Mike, is an explanation. ‘Why are you doing this? Why are my taxes so high.” You sit down and you explain to them what we do and how we do it and they’re fine. When they walk out, they’re not happy, but at least they understand. I have found in my life that’s pretty much what people want. They just want to what the hell is going on. What are the complaints about government? You’re not treated well. You can’t get anybody on the phone. Nobody will talk to you. Nobody will answer your questions. They send you from place to place to place to place. Somebody trying to get a building permit, it takes forever. It shouldn’t be that way, it shouldn’t be that way. I tell my people, ‘when people come in here you need to be nice to them. These people are customers. Pretend you’re working at Dillard’s. You need to be nice to them because they deserve that. They are paying your salary.