It’s early yet, but a number of locals have been eyeing Mayor John Delaney’s desk in City Hall, trying to imagine how their family pictures would look sitting there for a four-year term. While the Democrats and the Republicans argue over minor philosophical differences, a growing number of Americans have latched onto third-party candidates. Doug Klippel, chair of the Duval County Libertarian Party, sat down recently with Daily Record staff writer Glenn Tschimpke to discuss his party’s philosophies. Klippel, who is considering running for mayor in 2003, has lived in Jacksonville for the last 10 years, originally hailing from southern California. He currently works as an industrial psychologist with Hogan Assessments, a human resource consulting firm in Jacksonville Beach.
Question: What are some of the basic political theories of the Libertarian party?
Answer: When you understand the Libertarian philosophy, you always know where a Libertarian stands. Agree or disagree, you always know where a Libertarian comes down on an issue. They say today the key to politics is capturing the centrist voter. That hurts us sometimes because we are uncompromising. It’s also led to some funny slogans like, ‘The Libertarian party is the party to offend everybody.’ Libertarians strongly believe in the free market. We say that Libertarians are 100 percent in favor of economic freedom, meaning that when people earn money, it’s theirs to keep instead of the government’s. We think the free market can much better meet the needs of society than any government planner ever could.
Q: Are you opposed to any taxes or do you support a tax rate to support minimum services by government like garbage collection?
A: It’s almost easiest to discuss this at the federal level. For example, Libertarians want to completely abolish the income tax. We think that if the government were confined to the areas that are outlined for it in the Constitution, which are actually fairly small, national defense, federal judiciary, the mint, the post office and a few other minor functions. Those could easily be paid for by tariffs and excise taxes. When it gets to the local level, Libertarians envision a checkerboard of state and localities. Some will probably have more government services and higher tax rates. Others might have very minimal government services and very low taxes. There are a lot of nuances in terms of having absolutely no taxes versus small taxes. But you certainly could say Libertarians believe in low taxes and small government.
Q: What other philosophies do Libertarians hold?
A: Libertarians have a live and let live attitude. If people aren’t harming other people, then the government has no business passing laws. For example, restricting sexual acts between two consenting adults or blue laws in some localities where it’s against the law to have sex during the day or stuff like that. Libertarians are against drugs, but we realize the prohibition approach to drugs has been an absolute failure. And anybody who doesn’t think that is either deluded or isn’t paying attention. It’s not only failing to stop drugs, it’s eroding everybody’s civil liberties. We think that anything prohibiting drugs increases their use. It’s the forbidden fruit syndrome. It sets up a situation where black market drug dealers have a vested interest in hooking kids on drugs. While certainly there is a small percentage of the population that probably are abusing drugs now and would continue to abuse drugs even if they were legal, we actually think that, using a cost-benefit analysis, fully legalizing drugs actually would make a lot more sense.
Q: Do you mean legalizing all drugs from marijuana to LSD to heroin?
A: Including prescription drugs — no prescriptions required for drugs. It’s founded on the notion of private property rights. If you don’t own your own body, what do you own? Certainly it would not be wise or advantageous for people to be running out and buying prescription drugs and treating themselves if they didn’t have any idea of what they were doing. But I always ask people, if prescription drugs were legal and you were sick, would you run out and buy something or would you actually see a physician? People always say, ‘Of course I would check out what I was doing.’ So we think people have the right to self-medicate. We’re certainly not in favor of random drug use. We’re not in favor of illicit drug use. We’re not in favor of prescription abuse. To wind that all up, Libertarians want to get people out of people’s lives. We think the way you foster a responsible society is by giving people responsibility and accountability for their own actions. If somebody gets tanked up on LSD or heroin and gets in a car and they are in a position to cause damage to somebody, they should be civilly liable just like we have DUI laws right now. But in terms of somebody sitting in their home and partaking in a recreational drug, we don’t think that’s the business of the government.
Q: What is the Libertarian view of the Better Jacksonville Plan? Obviously, Jacksonville’s growth necessitates wider roads and better infrastructure.
A: When you look at the things that are on the Better Jacksonville Plan, it’s easy to get sucked into the euphoria, if you will, of the positives that are on the docket. The only problem is if you really look at some of the costs associated with all those things and follow the bouncing ball in terms of the contracts getting to work, you don’t have to look very hard until you find some really shady goings-on.
Q: Like what?
A: People who are being awarded the contracts for the work. Land purchases and land deals that are coming out of it, buying right-of-way and things along those lines, paying inflated prices. Libertarians are certainly in favor of roads that decrease congestion and new facilities and downtown housing and things along those lines. But our contention is there is a need for those things the free market will deliver actually will deliver much better than any government agency ever could. For example, there is no reason that taxpayers should be forced to subsidize an arena they may or may not ever use. I addressed the Jacksonville City Council several months back when they approved the $75 million shipyard redevelopment deal. I got up in front of the Council and told them that was not the proper role of government. If there was a need for loft condominium housing down there along the shipyard, their job as elected officials was quite easy. The only thing they had to do was step aside and let the market deliver. Apart from loosening up some restrictions and regulations, their job was actually quite simple if in fact there was a need for it. They looked at me like I fell out of a tree. Unfortunately, most politicians today have no qualms about spending yours or my money. Libertarians take a fundamentally different view. They always ask, can only the government do this? Can only the government deliver? Ninety-nine point nine percent of the time, the answer is no. Turning it over to a private enterprise or private corporation is going to result in something that is more targeted, more effective, more efficient and less costly. To the extent possible, we always opt for private ownership. Honestly, roads are one of the things that commonly come up. I think that there have been some tremendous experiments done in various municipalities. Like I mentioned, I’m from southern California. They actually turned over a section of State Road 91 in Riverside County. The State actually granted right-of-way to a private company, who put in a couple of toll lanes with automatic transponders and windows that deduct charges as you go by. It cuts two or three hours commuting time back and forth into Los Angeles for people who live maybe 60 miles out of the city.
Q: So it’s a pay-for-use road?
A: Absolutely. Critics call them Lexus lanes and stuff like that and say that some people can’t afford it, but typically if they have a company that’s offering it, they have an incentive to offer it to as many people as they can. There is a law in economics called the Law of What is Seen and the Law of What is Not Seen. When somebody passes a new tax that takes money out of the economy, it’s very easy if you solely focus on things that are funded by that. You never see the economic investment that might have resulted from that money, jobs that might have been created and the expansions that might have happened. Sure a half of a cent doesn’t seem like an awful lot, but if you think of all these taxes and regulations and it’s almost like a cocoon. It keeps getting layer on top of layer. No single one is enough to bring the economy down completely. What it does is it keeps it from operating at full throttle.
Q: What is your opinion on the City giving corporate incentive deals to companies like Vestcor?
A: People across the country have tended to flee downtown areas for the suburbs. Why? They like open spaces. They want greenery. Sure, everybody wants a vibrant downtown. The question you have to ask yourself is that a good use of money if you’re trying to foster something and develop something that is not coming on its own. I know some proponents say if you build it, they will come. They may or they may not. Everybody that comes to town talking about expansion, the first question on their mind is, ‘What are you going to offer us?’ It’s kind of a bad deal because I know that other cities are playing the same game. What we need to do here in Jacksonville is set up a desirable enough business climate and have a high enough caliber workforce who are skilled and easily trained so we’re the location of choice. We don’t want to further burden taxpayers to lure jobs. There has been a tremendous amount of effort by the City Council trying to get businesses out of the congested corridor [at Southpoint and along Butler Boulevard] and trying to get them on the Northside. The Libertarian perspective is, if there are things that make this area of town undesirable and if they’re undesirable enough, companies themselves will start to voluntarily relocate. They don’t need some master planner who’s trying to direct and tell them what to do.
Q: You are a Jaguars fan and attend Jaguars games at Alltel Stadium. You reap a large tangible entertainment benefit and untold intangible benefits from one of the largest subsidies in Jacksonville’s history, which goes against your Libertarian philosophy.
A: The Libertarian answer is very clear. We would not hand out a pile of money to a pro football team. I will admit that I do think it has given the city a shot in the arm. It has kind of helped with its spirit and has put us more on the map in terms of the business community. I love going to the games. But again, the Libertarian perspective is there are a lot of people around here who aren’t football fans. They should not be required to pay for Wayne Weaver’s stadium. We see it is the gift that keeps on giving in terms of the renovations and things that are coming up. I think before all is said and done, public statements to the contrary, I think it’s going to be the taxpayer who’s footing the bill for it.
Q: The Jaguars have done more than bring entertainment.
A: It has raised the whole stature of the city. There’s no question about it.
Q: If you had to make an exception for government subsidies, would that be one?
A: No.
Q: Even with the ancillary benefits?
A: I don’t know how you would do a cost benefit analysis on it [the Jaguars overall benefit to the community]. Some of those things are fairly intangible. There is a lot of money that went into that team. Who knows what economically remaining here in the local community, who knows what that could have done to the business environment. We would never compromise our position on that no matter how strong of football fans we are.