There may not be anyone better in Jacksonville to talk about the Duval County school system than Cheryl Grymes. A mother of four daughters, Grymes has graduated two daughters from the system and has two still in public schools. She’s a Wolfson High School graduate, a two-term School Board member, executive director of The Alliance for World Class Education and the chair of the Joint Planning Committee. She’s married to specialty advertising executive Warren Grymes, and is the daughter of the late Russ Godwin, who was active in civic affairs and owner of Florida Feed Mills. Daily Record staff writer Mike Sharkey met with Grymes last week to talk about the system,what ails it and what can be done to help.
Question: As we enter the 2003 school year in about a month, what’s the single biggest issue facing the system?
Answer: Certainly, it’s more than one issue. I think so much of what the system deals with comes from where the students are. When the students get to the classroom door, they are coming with certain things already in place and it is so difficult for the system to be able to take a class of 30 kids who are starting at such a different levels of knowledge and at different points in life and take that and try to move them to the standard we all want them to achieve. I guess the system faces problems like discipline, problems like different levels of knowledge when the kids get to school and that creates an interesting challenge.
Q: What do you do for a living?
A: I am the executive director for The Alliance For World Class Education, which is a non-profit group of top level civic and business leaders whose sole purpose is to improve public education in Duval County.
Q: When was the Alliance
established?
A: Actually it is an organization that has existed since 1986, originally as the Duval Public Education Foundation. The name was changed and the board of directors was changed in 1999 when the superintendent came in and had very strong feelings about the fact he wanted top level business people involved. So, they changed the name, brought in a higher level of board of directors and since that time I’ve been working at the Alliance.
Q: What can or has the Alliance done over the years to better the system.
A: I came to the job in January 2001. I left the School Board in November 2000. Prior to that time, they had decided that professional development was a very important issue, that was a need in the system. They started on this journey — Fred Schultz led the charge and [former University of Florida chancellor] Marshall Criser at the time was president of the Alliance — and Fred put $1 million of his own money in and raised another $3 million and got $4 million in matching funds to build the Schultz Center for teaching and leadership. It’s a first-class, high-quality, high-tech professional development center. They took an existing building that was a professional development center — but not of the same caliber and belonged to the Duval County school system — and also built an auditorium. They have branched off since that time and have become their own private 501(c)(3). Linda Lewis is now president of the Schultz Center and their focus is strictly on professional development for teachers in prep schools. And, they are also a regional center. They serve not just Duval County, but the surrounding regions.
Q: What are some of the other things the Alliance is doing these days?
A: One of our focuses is on principal leadership and one of our initiatives is partnering a CEO with a principal, looking at the fact that CEOs have management skills that are very important to a principal. They [CEOs] certainly don’t have the educational skills, but they have the management skills. We put a principal and a CEO together to help the principal learn some of that. Another piece that they bring to the table is money and with that money the principal and the CEO work on a plan and a budget. A majority of that is for teacher incentives and some of the businesses have used their employee incentive models for the teacher incentive models and it’s based a lot on some of the best business practices that they bring to the picture. I think it’s all about looking at those practices whether that be in the education sector or the business sector. That’s one of the ways the business community can work with the education system.
Q: The Alliance seems to be Republican-heavy. Is that by design or is that a coincidence that simply reflects the area?
A: It’s probably a reflection of Jacksonville because I don’t think there was a conscious effort toward that. I think it’s certainly a non-partisan issue. Improving public education is obviously on everybody’s mind. That certainly wasn’t by design.
Q: You are a former two-term member of the School Board. What about serving on the board interested you in the first place?
A: Probably because I was very naive. The interest came strictly from being a volunteer, a parent. I have four children and the more involved I got the more I realized the problems. My background was I was the Duval County PTA president and I decided to run for the board. I felt like, too, on the board that parent perspective was missing. When I ran in 1992 that was something that was needed and I felt like, as everyone does when they go into elected office, I could make a difference.
Q: Did you make a difference?
A: Yes, I believe I did. Unfortunately, it was rough. There are issues that continue to be issues today that have been issues for years that certainly won’t go away. My eight years on the board were . . . a lot of it was consumed by the desegregation issue. That’s a very difficult issue. Yes, there’s some things I’m proud of, but obviously there’s a lot of issues that caused frustration.
Q: Can you talk about some of those frustrations?
A: Sure. There were all kinds of frustrations with desegregation being number one. I represented the Mandarin/San Marco area and it was very difficult to explain to my constituents the reason for the desegregation, the things we had to do, as simple as Mandarin High School being denied AP [Advanced Placement] courses in math and science through the desegregation agreement with the reason being that they wanted the high school students from Mandarin to go to Raines because that was the math and science magnet [school]. Of course, it didn’t work that way. It was difficult to explain and they felt like they were being penalized. The other issues I dealt with were also controversial, sex education being one. I’d have to say that was frustrating but one of my accomplishments. I feel there was a time when the community was extremely divided and we had a lawsuit against the board over the curriculum and it was a very divided issue, very emotional. I appointed a task force that worked for over a year and even longer than that to develop a curriculum and at the final vote it was accepted by a vote of 7-0. That was a triumph that we were able to bring all the sides together and come up with something that was agreeable.
Q: How has it changed over the years from the time you were in school to several years ago when your daughters started getting out until now?
A: I think what has changed is there’s a different kind of parent and there’s a different kind of kid. It’s just a different student that people are dealing with today. It’s also a different kind of parent. People are very busy, they are stressed. During my time on the board I saw many parents who were very happy to just turn their children over to the system and let the system fix them. The level of involvement is not the same. Kids don’t respect authority like they did when I was in school. Parents don’t back up the teachers like they did when I was in school. There just seems to be more of a ‘no fear’ attitude coming from the kids. I was always very fearful of the principal and very fearful of being sent to the office.
Q: Is that a societal issue or an educational issue.
A: It’s a societal issue mostly and it’s probably a little bit of both. I think the educational system can only do so much. It bothers me a bit when we talk about that the schools don’t teach values, they don’t teach morals because that says to me that people are saying that teachers are amoral and I don’t believe that. I believe that we have teachers with very high standards and very high values and I think they teach kids that every day whether it’s, ‘raise your hand when you speak,’ ‘don’t hit each other,’ ‘don’t call names,’ — the very simple philosophies in life as to how we should treat each other.
Q: The system instructs teachers to treat every child as potential college material. Statistics show that this isn’t reasonable. What do you think about forcing children who show little academic interest into taking a predominantly vocational class load to help them learn valuable skills and at least graduate on time?
A: I really believe we’ve been on that track for a long time. The Chamber has been very involved in that particular effort. For at least 10 years I’ve been involved with what’s been called Workforce Preparation and it’s truly been a process to take what was the skills centers, which became dumping grounds for kids who were either discipline problems or not achieving in the regular schools. Through the years those have been changed into academies and they’ve worked specifically with the industries they are trying to help get a work force in place. We have come a long way. There’s some wonderful things being done. In the automotive industry, the kids are partnered with a dealership and they come out with very specific skills. It’s obvious that through the years the system concentrated a lot on those kids that were college bound, which is about 20 percent. So, it’s very true that a majority of the kids are going into the work force. I do believe that concentration there, but unfortunately it’s not easy to make it happen. Dealing with the school system, it’s a bureaucracy. It takes longer.
Q: Should we target students for that educational route at a younger age and would that help the system overall?
A: Yes, is some ways I do think that but it’s kind of a mixed bag. I would hate to see you put a kid in a slot and decide that’s where he needs to be when in reality a lot of us, whatever age, didn’t know what we wanted to be. At the same time, I think it would be helpful if kids are put somewhere that’s an area of interest. It certainly would help them stay in school and help develop skills; there’s absolutely no question about that. A piece of that is being able to give the kids career counseling which is a whole other issue because when you have a student/counselor ratio of 600-1, kids are not able to get career counseling.
Q: Is the system almost too complicated for its own good?
A: Well, it’s too large for its own good; there’s absolutely no question about that. It is a very cumbersome system and probably the kids that get lost in the shuffle are the average kids. There’s attention on those at the top and attention on those at the bottom and a lot of the kids in the middle somehow get missed.
Q: What’s good about our school system?
A: I do think in the past few years, especially since the new superintendent [Dr. John Fryer] came to Jacksonville, the concentration has been specifically on academic achievement. We have some very specific standards in place. There’s a lot more reading and writing going on in the elementary schools and I can even see that with my two older daughters compared to the two younger daughters and what they are getting at a younger level. I do think that the academics have been beefed up and I think a lot of concentration has been on the elementary schools because, obviously, the sooner you can get them the better off you are. But, that does leave the high schools; the kids that have not gotten it up to this point and, obviously, the latest results show that so many of the kids have a reading problem and that’s really a difficult problem to solve. I think we are on the right path. I think in a few years you will see a significant level of academic achievement and that’s overall. It’s difficult to solve the problem of some kids achieving at a higher level than others.
Q: Within the next three to five years, thanks to retirement, there is going to be a serious teacher shortage in Duval County. If a majority of them do not enter the drop program (a five-year commitment), what can you or the Alliance do to prevent a massive shortage of teachers?
A: Actually, that’s one of our top concerns — teacher recognition, recruitment and retaining the teachers we do have is of significant concern. You’re right, the teacher shortage is fast approaching and not only are people retiring, but you have teachers coming out of the schools of education who are choosing either not to go into the teaching profession or stay one or two years and they are gone. It’s an issue. One of the things the Alliance does is sponsor the Eddy Awards, which is actually the Teacher of the Year selection process for every school in the area, and that is the culmination and announcing the Duval County Teacher of the Year. We are expanding that to work in more areas, making that a really quality process so we truly are recognizing the best and the brightest in the teaching profession. We also have a goal to bring a level of professionalism and respect back to the teaching profession itself because people used to have a burning desire to teach and I don’t know that it’s there anymore. This past year we ran some spots on Ch. 12 three weeks before the Eddys, trying to get some recognition for these teachers and just talking about the teaching profession. We want to do more of that whether it’s billboards or other things to let the teachers know they are appreciated. Bottom line: when that teacher closes the door in that classroom that’s where the rubber meets the road.
Q: Mayor John Delaney is on record as saying an appointed School Board isn’t a bad idea for Duval County. Being a two-time elected School Board member, what are your thoughts on an appointed board?
A: Whether or not an appointed School Board would be the magic [trick], I don’t know. But I do think it’s important we explore options. You know, a seven-member elected board with very few staff — three or four staff people are assigned to the board — in thinking about the fact the School Board represents two City Council districts, there’s just a huge disconnect with the responsibilities the School Board members have compared to the Council. I don’t know [about an appointed board] but I think we should explore options. I think there’s all kinds of options that we as a community should look at and it’s very difficult because people get defensive. There may be some combination of appointed/elected. It’s very difficult to go from elected to appointed because people don’t want their right to choose taken away.
Q: Would it help the board and the system as a whole to change the job of school board member by paying them more and making it a full-time job, thus asking them to choose between public service and a private job?
A: No, because I would be very concerned about someone making it their full-time job. The reality is the board is a policy-making board, they are not supposed to be running the system. I think if we can truly have a board that is that, a policy-making board who sets the direction for the district, who sets the direction for the superintendent and holds the superintendent accountable, without getting into the day-to-day activities, then that is the day we’ll have a quality government structure.
Q: Is there the perception that the School Board does run the system?
A: Yes, and I think that’s been there for years. It’s also very difficult as a board member not to get into the day-to-day because of the calls you get from parents. I think it’s very important there be a process in place, a way to deal with the calls you get and the complaints you get. It’s all about having the best superintendent in place so the board doesn’t have to get into the day-to-day activities.
Q; What do you think of our superintendent?
A: I think he’s doing an excellent job of focusing on the academic achievements. I believe it was needed. I spent many a time at board meetings talking about everything but academics and students, so I am pleased we are at that point and are focused on standards.
Q: Because of the size and diversity of our system, does Fryer have an almost no-win job?
A: It’s a very, very difficult job and there are so many constituencies out there he has to please. At times, I would say, yes, it’s an impossible job. I think it’s a job, and I came to that point, where you realize you’re just not going to make everybody happy so you’ve got to do the best you can with the knowledge you have and make the decisions you think are right.
Q: You are also chair of the Joint Planning Committee. That committee is reconvening again for the first time in several months. What’s your role and what’s the committee’s role?
A: The role of the committee is to coordinate efforts between the school system and the City [of Jacksonville, specifically City Council]. This has been an ongoing process and obviously during part of my tenure on the board was a time when the developers were unhappy with us and sued us and we were capping schools and there just was not a lot of communication going on. I think between the fact that we have growth in some areas and not in some areas, the school system has to react to the growth. But, we need to be planning and we need to be planning together for the future. I am hoping that this committee can help put a process in place that will facilitate that plan.
Q: If you could wave a magic wand over the system and change on thing, what would it be?
A: I wish I thought one thing could make a difference. The problems are such that it’s going to take more than one thing. There is probably one thing. I would wish that we as a community, we as a state would use all of our energy, effort, time and money on concentrating on improving the public education system instead of looking for magic bullets. People are out there saying, ‘What about this, what about this, what about this?’ Well, there’s no magic bullet. If we could spend our time identifying what the barriers to success are and why some schools and not successful and why some students are not successful, then I think that would be a much better use of our time. In order for us to be the best we can be, we have to believe in our system.